Does school size really matter?

[Penguin]

Why isn't Wando in the playoffs? Largest school in the state, should have football championship galore based on the enrollment thought.

Ding, ding, ding, we have a winner. Most of the posters here were once regulars at PFT. I am getting ready here, to piss off a lot of folks, but here goes anyway. Over the last 15 plus years, those of us who have posted regularly on these boards about High School football in the State of South Carolina, have been forced to choke down the bile that came about 20 times per day from a certain group of Burnz posters, about how their beloved Rubbles who were in Class 4A Division II, could, or would, beat the brakes off of each and every Class 4A Division I team in the state. It did not matter that they were NOT in the group of the 16 largest schools by enrollment. They were NFL good. Now that Burnz is one of those largest 16 schools, the argument is changed to that of only the biggest schools can compete. I call BS. And hypocrisy to the n'th degree. I submit to everyone that Dillon High School, Hartsville High School, South Pointe High School, and others, can beat the brakes off of Wando High School any day, and everyday. I contend that the Coaching Staff and player devotion are far more important factors than the actual number of students enrolled at a school.

[eagle93]

Why isn't Wando in the playoffs? Largest school in the state, should have football championship galore based on the enrollment thought.

Ding, ding, ding, we have a winner. Most of the posters here were once regulars at PFT. I am getting ready here, to piss off a lot of folks, but here goes anyway. Over the last 15 plus years, those of us who have posted regularly on these boards about High School football in the State of South Carolina, have been forced to choke down the bile that came about 20 times per day from a certain group of Burnz posters, about how their beloved Rubbles who were in Class 4A Division II, could, or would, beat the brakes off of each and every Class 4A Division I team in the state. It did not matter that they were NOT in the group of the 16 largest schools by enrollment. They were NFL good. Now that Burnz is one of those largest 16 schools, the argument is changed to that of only the biggest schools can compete. I call BS. And hypocrisy to the n'th degree. I submit to everyone that Dillon High School, Hartsville High School, South Pointe High School, and others, can beat the brakes off of Wando High School any day, and everyday. I contend that the Coaching Staff and player devotion are far more important factors than the actual number of students enrolled at a school.

Agree wholeheartedly. Even Greenwood has done it. In 2000 they won D2 and beat Dorman who won D1. In 2012 they beat everyone they played. Their out of conference games were D1, and I'm not talking about the Wando type either, but traditional powers who compete for titles often. When they have the right coach they play like champions. The schedule has been watered down now and they can't even win region. A team is only as strong as it's leader. Give me the right coach over enrollment. We have kids that won't even play or have gone to other schools to play. Every recent year they have won titles 99 title, 2000 title, 2006 title, 2010 title appearance, 2011 title appearance, 2012 title they played a D1 out of conference schedule and faired well against it. The coaches had killer instinct and connected well with the kids in the community.

[StateChampsGHS]

The key to a successful High School football program is having a coach, or coaches, who can connect with the kids at the school and motivate them to participate. Once you have that, then you motivate them to work hard in the off season with weights, conditioning, and honing their skills. If you have that kind of coaching staff, you will have a successful program, not just a successful team. The more players that you get involved, the more parents that will get involved. That translates to having the community get involved. Add in some winning, and you have what you are looking for. Unfortunately, most School Boards do not understand the benefits of having a winning football program, and when a coach manages to get things going, another district comes a calling offering more money and the local Board just lets them walk rather than retaining them. These are the things that MOST schools struggle with, not actual enrollment numbers.

I have to agree with this. Abbveville's program live by these principles above.....that's why they are so successful each year. Most likely, they will win another state championship this year.

[FootballFan4343]

Why isn't Wando in the playoffs? Largest school in the state, should have football championship galore based on the enrollment thought.

Ding, ding, ding, we have a winner. Most of the posters here were once regulars at PFT. I am getting ready here, to piss off a lot of folks, but here goes anyway. Over the last 15 plus years, those of us who have posted regularly on these boards about High School football in the State of South Carolina, have been forced to choke down the bile that came about 20 times per day from a certain group of Burnz posters, about how their beloved Rubbles who were in Class 4A Division II, could, or would, beat the brakes off of each and every Class 4A Division I team in the state. It did not matter that they were NOT in the group of the 16 largest schools by enrollment. They were NFL good. Now that Burnz is one of those largest 16 schools, the argument is changed to that of only the biggest schools can compete. I call BS. And hypocrisy to the n'th degree. I submit to everyone that Dillon High School, Hartsville High School, South Pointe High School, and others, can beat the brakes off of Wando High School any day, and everyday. I contend that the Coaching Staff and player devotion are far more important factors than the actual number of students enrolled at a school.

I agree 100% that the schools you mentioned would regularly beat Wando. But, those schools you mentioned, if they were playing up a level (assuming they were the size they are now but actually playing up one classification), they would not compete for state championships year in and year out. They might play for one or win one every few years but it is safe to say that South Pointe would not have won 4 consecutive state championships in 5A. Nor would Dillon have done the same in 4A. In addition Hartsville wouldn't have played for 3 of the last 4 in 5A. If those teams aren't winning titles every year, we don't know how that would effect the tradition, coaching staff, players, depth, etc. It is much easier to get kids to come out when you are playing for state championships every year than when you are losing in the 1st or 2nd round.

I think size matters, yes, but it obviously isn't the only thing that matters, and as always there are exceptions to every rule.

[eagle93]

Why isn't Wando in the playoffs? Largest school in the state, should have football championship galore based on the enrollment thought.

Ding, ding, ding, we have a winner. Most of the posters here were once regulars at PFT. I am getting ready here, to piss off a lot of folks, but here goes anyway. Over the last 15 plus years, those of us who have posted regularly on these boards about High School football in the State of South Carolina, have been forced to choke down the bile that came about 20 times per day from a certain group of Burnz posters, about how their beloved Rubbles who were in Class 4A Division II, could, or would, beat the brakes off of each and every Class 4A Division I team in the state. It did not matter that they were NOT in the group of the 16 largest schools by enrollment. They were NFL good. Now that Burnz is one of those largest 16 schools, the argument is changed to that of only the biggest schools can compete. I call BS. And hypocrisy to the n'th degree. I submit to everyone that Dillon High School, Hartsville High School, South Pointe High School, and others, can beat the brakes off of Wando High School any day, and everyday. I contend that the Coaching Staff and player devotion are far more important factors than the actual number of students enrolled at a school.

I agree 100% that the schools you mentioned would regularly beat Wando. But, those schools you mentioned, if they were playing up a level (assuming they were the size they are now but actually playing up one classification), they would not compete for state championships year in and year out. They might play for one or win one every few years but it is safe to say that South Pointe would not have won 4 consecutive state championships in 5A. Nor would Dillon have done the same in 4A. In addition Hartsville wouldn't have played for 3 of the last 4 in 5A. If those teams aren't winning titles every year, we don't know how that would effect the tradition, coaching staff, players, depth, etc. It is much easier to get kids to come out when you are playing for state championships every year than when you are losing in the 1st or 2nd round.

I think size matters, yes, but it obviously isn't the only thing that matters, and as always there are exceptions to every rule.

I stand by what I said. Give me a coach who is of championship mind who isn't concerned with enrollment as an excuse. The best coaches are willing to play anyone and win.

[StateChampsGHS]

Why isn't Wando in the playoffs? Largest school in the state, should have football championship galore based on the enrollment thought.

Ding, ding, ding, we have a winner. Most of the posters here were once regulars at PFT. I am getting ready here, to piss off a lot of folks, but here goes anyway. Over the last 15 plus years, those of us who have posted regularly on these boards about High School football in the State of South Carolina, have been forced to choke down the bile that came about 20 times per day from a certain group of Burnz posters, about how their beloved Rubbles who were in Class 4A Division II, could, or would, beat the brakes off of each and every Class 4A Division I team in the state. It did not matter that they were NOT in the group of the 16 largest schools by enrollment. They were NFL good. Now that Burnz is one of those largest 16 schools, the argument is changed to that of only the biggest schools can compete. I call BS. And hypocrisy to the n'th degree. I submit to everyone that Dillon High School, Hartsville High School, South Pointe High School, and others, can beat the brakes off of Wando High School any day, and everyday. I contend that the Coaching Staff and player devotion are far more important factors than the actual number of students enrolled at a school.

I agree 100% that the schools you mentioned would regularly beat Wando. But, those schools you mentioned, if they were playing up a level (assuming they were the size they are now but actually playing up one classification), they would not compete for state championships year in and year out. They might play for one or win one every few years but it is safe to say that South Pointe would not have won 4 consecutive state championships in 5A. Nor would Dillon have done the same in 4A. In addition Hartsville wouldn't have played for 3 of the last 4 in 5A. If those teams aren't winning titles every year, we don't know how that would effect the tradition, coaching staff, players, depth, etc. It is much easier to get kids to come out when you are playing for state championships every year than when you are losing in the 1st or 2nd round.

I think size matters, yes, but it obviously isn't the only thing that matters, and as always there are exceptions to every rule.

I stand by what I said. Give me a coach who is of championship mind who isn't concerned with enrollment as an excuse. The best coaches are willing to play anyone and win.

I agree. Give me a championship type coach and staff over enrollment anyday.

[FootballFan4343]

Why isn't Wando in the playoffs? Largest school in the state, should have football championship galore based on the enrollment thought.

Ding, ding, ding, we have a winner. Most of the posters here were once regulars at PFT. I am getting ready here, to piss off a lot of folks, but here goes anyway. Over the last 15 plus years, those of us who have posted regularly on these boards about High School football in the State of South Carolina, have been forced to choke down the bile that came about 20 times per day from a certain group of Burnz posters, about how their beloved Rubbles who were in Class 4A Division II, could, or would, beat the brakes off of each and every Class 4A Division I team in the state. It did not matter that they were NOT in the group of the 16 largest schools by enrollment. They were NFL good. Now that Burnz is one of those largest 16 schools, the argument is changed to that of only the biggest schools can compete. I call BS. And hypocrisy to the n'th degree. I submit to everyone that Dillon High School, Hartsville High School, South Pointe High School, and others, can beat the brakes off of Wando High School any day, and everyday. I contend that the Coaching Staff and player devotion are far more important factors than the actual number of students enrolled at a school.

I agree 100% that the schools you mentioned would regularly beat Wando. But, those schools you mentioned, if they were playing up a level (assuming they were the size they are now but actually playing up one classification), they would not compete for state championships year in and year out. They might play for one or win one every few years but it is safe to say that South Pointe would not have won 4 consecutive state championships in 5A. Nor would Dillon have done the same in 4A. In addition Hartsville wouldn't have played for 3 of the last 4 in 5A. If those teams aren't winning titles every year, we don't know how that would effect the tradition, coaching staff, players, depth, etc. It is much easier to get kids to come out when you are playing for state championships every year than when you are losing in the 1st or 2nd round.

I think size matters, yes, but it obviously isn't the only thing that matters, and as always there are exceptions to every rule.

I stand by what I said. Give me a coach who is of championship mind who isn't concerned with enrollment as an excuse. The best coaches are willing to play anyone and win.

I agree and disagree with your statement. I know of multiple great coaches who were only perceived as great once they got to a school that had the enrollment, depth, and athletes to compete. You can have the best coach in the world, but if you don't have the players, it doesn't matter. A great example in the NFL is Belicheck. He was FIRED by the Browns, but he goes to the Patriots and becomes the greatest coach ever. How does that happen? Everyone claims Nick Saban is the world's greatest coach, but is he? Or is it because he always has the most talent. Look at his disaster attempt in the NFL, once his talent was equal or less than his opponents. He couldn't get out of the NFL fast enough because he realized he didn't have better talent than his opponents.
Look, I am not saying that having a great coach isn't key, but lets stop playing here and act like that is the most important thing. Everyone here knows the most important thing is the players, end of discussion. To get the best players, it HELPS to have more students attend the school. I am not saying that is the only way, but it helps, so YES school size does matter. Maybe not the MOST IMPORTANT thing, but it matters.

[eagle93]

Why isn't Wando in the playoffs? Largest school in the state, should have football championship galore based on the enrollment thought.

Ding, ding, ding, we have a winner. Most of the posters here were once regulars at PFT. I am getting ready here, to piss off a lot of folks, but here goes anyway. Over the last 15 plus years, those of us who have posted regularly on these boards about High School football in the State of South Carolina, have been forced to choke down the bile that came about 20 times per day from a certain group of Burnz posters, about how their beloved Rubbles who were in Class 4A Division II, could, or would, beat the brakes off of each and every Class 4A Division I team in the state. It did not matter that they were NOT in the group of the 16 largest schools by enrollment. They were NFL good. Now that Burnz is one of those largest 16 schools, the argument is changed to that of only the biggest schools can compete. I call BS. And hypocrisy to the n'th degree. I submit to everyone that Dillon High School, Hartsville High School, South Pointe High School, and others, can beat the brakes off of Wando High School any day, and everyday. I contend that the Coaching Staff and player devotion are far more important factors than the actual number of students enrolled at a school.

I agree 100% that the schools you mentioned would regularly beat Wando. But, those schools you mentioned, if they were playing up a level (assuming they were the size they are now but actually playing up one classification), they would not compete for state championships year in and year out. They might play for one or win one every few years but it is safe to say that South Pointe would not have won 4 consecutive state championships in 5A. Nor would Dillon have done the same in 4A. In addition Hartsville wouldn't have played for 3 of the last 4 in 5A. If those teams aren't winning titles every year, we don't know how that would effect the tradition, coaching staff, players, depth, etc. It is much easier to get kids to come out when you are playing for state championships every year than when you are losing in the 1st or 2nd round.

I think size matters, yes, but it obviously isn't the only thing that matters, and as always there are exceptions to every rule.

I stand by what I said. Give me a coach who is of championship mind who isn't concerned with enrollment as an excuse. The best coaches are willing to play anyone and win.

I agree and disagree with your statement. I know of multiple great coaches who were only perceived as great once they got to a school that had the enrollment, depth, and athletes to compete. You can have the best coach in the world, but if you don't have the players, it doesn't matter. A great example in the NFL is Belicheck. He was FIRED by the Browns, but he goes to the Patriots and becomes the greatest coach ever. How does that happen? Everyone claims Nick Saban is the world's greatest coach, but is he? Or is it because he always has the most talent. Look at his disaster attempt in the NFL, once his talent was equal or less than his opponents. He couldn't get out of the NFL fast enough because he realized he didn't have better talent than his opponents.
Look, I am not saying that having a great coach isn't key, but lets stop playing here and act like that is the most important thing. Everyone here knows the most important thing is the players, end of discussion. To get the best players, it HELPS to have more students attend the school. I am not saying that is the only way, but it helps, so YES school size does matter. Maybe not the MOST IMPORTANT thing, but it matters.

The city of Greenwood is loaded with talent. I stand by what I said. A leader who connects with the kids can and has competed for titles regularly. As for college there is a fairly small college that has been in the top 4 consistently over the last few years.

[FootballFan4343]

Why isn't Wando in the playoffs? Largest school in the state, should have football championship galore based on the enrollment thought.

Ding, ding, ding, we have a winner. Most of the posters here were once regulars at PFT. I am getting ready here, to piss off a lot of folks, but here goes anyway. Over the last 15 plus years, those of us who have posted regularly on these boards about High School football in the State of South Carolina, have been forced to choke down the bile that came about 20 times per day from a certain group of Burnz posters, about how their beloved Rubbles who were in Class 4A Division II, could, or would, beat the brakes off of each and every Class 4A Division I team in the state. It did not matter that they were NOT in the group of the 16 largest schools by enrollment. They were NFL good. Now that Burnz is one of those largest 16 schools, the argument is changed to that of only the biggest schools can compete. I call BS. And hypocrisy to the n'th degree. I submit to everyone that Dillon High School, Hartsville High School, South Pointe High School, and others, can beat the brakes off of Wando High School any day, and everyday. I contend that the Coaching Staff and player devotion are far more important factors than the actual number of students enrolled at a school.

I agree 100% that the schools you mentioned would regularly beat Wando. But, those schools you mentioned, if they were playing up a level (assuming they were the size they are now but actually playing up one classification), they would not compete for state championships year in and year out. They might play for one or win one every few years but it is safe to say that South Pointe would not have won 4 consecutive state championships in 5A. Nor would Dillon have done the same in 4A. In addition Hartsville wouldn't have played for 3 of the last 4 in 5A. If those teams aren't winning titles every year, we don't know how that would effect the tradition, coaching staff, players, depth, etc. It is much easier to get kids to come out when you are playing for state championships every year than when you are losing in the 1st or 2nd round.

I think size matters, yes, but it obviously isn't the only thing that matters, and as always there are exceptions to every rule.

I stand by what I said. Give me a coach who is of championship mind who isn't concerned with enrollment as an excuse. The best coaches are willing to play anyone and win.

I agree and disagree with your statement. I know of multiple great coaches who were only perceived as great once they got to a school that had the enrollment, depth, and athletes to compete. You can have the best coach in the world, but if you don't have the players, it doesn't matter. A great example in the NFL is Belicheck. He was FIRED by the Browns, but he goes to the Patriots and becomes the greatest coach ever. How does that happen? Everyone claims Nick Saban is the world's greatest coach, but is he? Or is it because he always has the most talent. Look at his disaster attempt in the NFL, once his talent was equal or less than his opponents. He couldn't get out of the NFL fast enough because he realized he didn't have better talent than his opponents.
Look, I am not saying that having a great coach isn't key, but lets stop playing here and act like that is the most important thing. Everyone here knows the most important thing is the players, end of discussion. To get the best players, it HELPS to have more students attend the school. I am not saying that is the only way, but it helps, so YES school size does matter. Maybe not the MOST IMPORTANT thing, but it matters.

The city of Greenwood is loaded with talent. I stand by what I said. A leader who connects with the kids can and has competed for titles regularly. As for college there is a fairly small college that has been in the top 4 consistently over the last few years.

OK, maybe I am not saying this right. I am not arguing with what you said. But you are using Greenwood as the example. As far as I can tell, Greenwood has never been the smallest school in their classification when they won state titles. Instead, they have been one of the bigger schools when they won state titles. #35 in 2012, which was the 4th largest of the 16 teams teams that qualified for 4A-II playoffs. 2006 they were #29 in ADM, which was 3rd largest of the 4A-II playoff teams. 2000, they were #37 which was 6th largest of the D2 playoff teams and in 1999 they were the largest little 32 team to qualify for playoffs. So, using Greenwood as an example isn't a great one, considering what this thread is about.
This thread started with "Does school size really matter". The author of this thread did not say that size is the ONLY thing that matters, instead he asked if it mattered. But somewhere, people have changed that to say, well coaching matters, athletes matter, tradition matters, etc, etc. And YES all of those matter as well. But no one has shown any evidence, yet, of a school that is the smallest in their classification that continues to, year in and year out, win state championships. It just doesn't happen. Your perennial powers tend to be the bigger schools in each classification.

Just look at last year's state champs
Dutch Fork: One of the bigger 5A schools
South Pointe: Middle of the 4A schools
Dillon: Middle of 3A schools
Abbeville: One of the bigger 2A schools
Lamar: One of the bigger 1A schools

So just last year, there was NO team that won the state title that was in the bottom half of their classification, in terms of enrollment. In fact, 3 of the 5 were in the top portion of their classification. If you took it a step further and looked at runners-up, you will find the same thing. Dorman, Hartsville, Chapman...All bigger schools.

Again, let me stress, great coaching is a major component and I am not arguing that it isn't. But to sit back and ignore facts that the larger schools, in each classification, tend to win the state titles, is not right.

As for the comment about college, my referencing of college coaches was not to talk about enrollment, instead it was asking the question, What makes a great coach? Some times its the players. If a coach doesn't have the talent, then no matter how good he is, he will struggle to win. Once CLEMSON started getting major talent, they competed for National Championships. Not saying that Dabo isn't a great coach, but did he just become a great coach once he got talent? If he was a great coach before, why did he lose to South Carolina 5 years in a row? Why were Clemson fans ready to run him out of town? The fact is he didn't have the TALENT.

[EmeraldCityEagle98]

All this long convo and it just is what it is! AN EXCUSE not to win! TL Hanna is not the largest school in 5a AND they play multiple players both ways. Why are they winning? BECAUSE THEY HAVE A COACH THAT DOESN'T MAKE THESE KIND OF EXCUSES. PERIOD