Does school size really matter?

[Deputy]

My goodness, this thread is tiring. I've got an idea let's just divide the classifications up to where no school has more than a 10 student difference amongst possible competitors. Then everybody wins, and gets a ribbon. The ones that don't, well I am sure there is another unfair angle they can play. Life is unfair folks. But then again, it does serve a purpose for coaches, and fan bases, looking for an excuse

[FootballFan4343]

My goodness, this thread is tiring. I've got an idea let's just divide the classifications up to where no school has more than a 10 student difference amongst possible competitors. Then everybody wins, and gets a ribbon. The ones that don't, well I am sure there is another unfair angle they can play. Life is unfair folks. But then again, it does serve a purpose for coaches, and fan bases, looking for an excuse

I don't see where anyone has argued that this is an excuse or argued against life being unfair. While yes, it is an excuse and YES life is unfair, that doesn't change the FACTS in this situation. Historically, the teams at the bottom of each classification (in terms of enrollment) do not consistently compete for State Championships in that classification. Instead, the teams that compete year in and year out tend to be in the upper half of enrollment in each classification, many times they tend to be the one of top 10 biggest in the classification.

The funny thing is how this thread has totally changed. SFBandDad asked a question, does it matter. When you look at the FACTS, that answer is a resounding YES. But along the way, people have said, No, coaching matters, No, athletes matter, enrollment is just an excuse, etc, etc. While all of the above is TRUE, Coaching does matter, athletes matter, blaming lack of success of low enrollment is an excuse, all of that is true. But, that doesn't change what the FACTS show. The FACTS are the smallest schools in each classification (in terms of enrollment) do NOT consistently compete for State Championships. So, knowing that FACT, the answer to SFBandDad's question is YES school enrollment does matter.

[eagle93]

How much bigger is TL Hanna compared to Byrnes in 5A?

If my mind serves me correctly, Byrnes is near the top and TL Hanna is near the bottom.... Right???

Here's a link to the ADM used for the last realignment. http://www.scpreptalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=3072

Berkeley was the only smaller school to make it to the 2nd round of 5A. I never said that school size was absolutely definitive, I said it was statistically significant. TL Hanna is near the middle of the pack in 5A (#28 of 48), their performance this year is exceptional. They had to defeat (#2) Dorman and (#5) Byrnes to earn the right to face (#13) Dutch Fork.

You can't use this enrollment talk to describe every school. Some areas have more natural athletes than others and with the right coach they're hard to beat.

Ugh, I thought this had gone away. You are exactly right, you can't use it to describe every school, however the FACTS show that the schools as the bottom of each classification (in terms of enrollment) NEVER consistently compete for State Championships. So, YES, it is true that the larger schools in each classification have an advantage when it comes to success. Again, enrollment is not the only key to success, but to deny the fact that it plays a role is just plain ignoring the facts.

I hope we get the right coach back in place and show you.

A couple of things. When Greenwood has had sustained success, they were one of the bigger teams in the playoff classification. Now that they are one of the smallest 5A schools they are NOT competing for State Championships. Might be winning some games, or even a region, but not playing for state titles.

Nope. Nobody knows Greenwood better than we do. We're playing the same schools and losing to ones we traditionally beat. Easley wasn't very good both times in the last 5 years that we lost to them. Dula and Cathcart didn't lose to them. Our opponents are the same. Nothing has changed there but the coaches. They couldn't get along with the current head coach so they left, and we have kids that won't play for him. They are choosing not to attend Greenwood High School. This used to be a non issue. We know what's going on down here. We aren't just speculating about it. It's facts. This past version of our team couldn't beat 2A Abbeville. A school with less than 500 students. But it will get fixed in the future.

[FootballFan4343]

I hope we get the right coach back in place and show you.[/quote]

A couple of things. When Greenwood has had sustained success, they were one of the bigger teams in the playoff classification. Now that they are one of the smallest 5A schools they are NOT competing for State Championships. Might be winning some games, or even a region, but not playing for state titles.[/quote]

Nope. Nobody knows Greenwood better than we do. We're playing the same schools and losing to ones we traditionally beat. Easley wasn't very good both times in the last 5 years that we lost to them. Dula and Cathcart didn't lose to them. Our opponents are the same. Nothing has changed there but the coaches. They couldn't get along with the current head coach so they left, and we have kids that won't play for him. They are choosing not to attend Greenwood High School. This used to be a non issue. We know what's going on down here. We aren't just speculating about it. It's facts. This past version of our team couldn't beat 2A Abbeville. A school with less than 500 students. But it will get fixed in the future.[/quote]

I would hope you know Greenwood better than most, since you are from there. But just because you know Greenwood better than everyone else, that doesn't mean facts are not facts. The FACT is since Greenwood became a 5A school (one of the smallest 5A schools, they are not competing for State Championships). The State Championships won since 1999, every year Greenwood was one of the largest 4A-Division 2 schools. Now that you all are one of the smallest 5A schools, you aren't competing. Could it be coincidence and will Greenwood become a 5A power, possibly. But if that happens, Greenwood would be the EXCEPTION, and not the rule. The FACTS show that the smallest schools in each classification (in terms of enrollment) do not consistently compete for State Championships at that classification level.
On another note, using Greenwood as your "example" is not a good as in fact, Greenwood proves my point. Greenwood's STATE Championship success was in years where they were one of the biggest 4A-D2 schools. (I realize in 2012 and/or 2000, they went 15-0 and beat Dorman that year or whatever because as I showed earlier in this post, Greenwood has an all-time losing record to those schools).

[eagle93]

They haven't competed because of coaching issues. We know what's going on. That coach has been there during this whole decline. It started before 5A was even created. They've played no one different than before. This same coach has never won one no matter where he was. Enrollment is an excuse, and it is being used. We've never had a coach who made excuses. This is the first. They've lost twice to Easley teams that just weren't good. They've lost to Laurens teams that just weren't that good. Right now they wouldn't win 4A either.

[StateChampsGHS]

On this Friday, we will see what Abbeville does against Barnwell. Barnwell is the biggest 2A school. They are underfeated in 2A. Abbeville is alittle bit under the halfway mark in the 2A classification. I bet Abbeville kills Barnwell Friday.

In the last 10 years, Abbeville beat the following teams Lincoln County, Newberry, Woodruff, Hartsville, Chesnee, Strom Thurmond, Greenville, Emerald, Fairfield Central, Clinton, Chester, Crescent and Hart County, GA. All these schools listed has a larger enrollment than Abbeville.

[FootballFan4343]

On this Friday, we will see what Abbeville does against Barnwell. Barnwell is the biggest 2A school. They are underfeated in 2A. Abbeville is alittle bit under the halfway mark in the 2A classification. I bet Abbeville kills Barnwell Friday.

In the last 10 years, Abbeville beat the following teams Lincoln County, Newberry, Woodruff, Hartsville, Chesnee, Strom Thurmond, Greenville, Emerald, Fairfield Central, Clinton, Chester, Crescent and Hart County, GA. All these schools listed has a larger enrollment than Abbeville.

Again, you are still missing the point. While Barnell is bigger than Abbeville (in terms of enrollment), Abbeville certainly is not near the smallest 2A school. You are correct, they are smack in the middle of the classification. Everyone keeps using the fact that Abbeville, Dillon, (insert team name here), has beaten bigger teams. That is extremely true. It can happen. However, to do it game in and game out and in the playoffs is a different story. While Abbeville would surely win their fair share of games at 3A, they would not consistently compete for the State Championship (the way they do now in 2A). The same can be said for Dillon in 4A and South Pointe in 5A. Those teams would have their "years", but they wouldn't be the world beater they are now in their current classification.
So, if what you are saying is true about school size truly not mattering. Are you saying that Lamar (who has DOMINATED 1A for the the last decade) could win the same way at the 5A level? Anything short of a YES to my answer is admitting that school size DOES matter.

While that is an extreme example, if you truly believe that school size doesn't matter at all and that it is all about coaching and the athletes, (and to use an example from someone who said all you need is 23 players and a great head coach)...then that team should win at any level.

I will say this AGAIN. The teams at the BOTTOM of each classification do not consistently compete for State Championships in that classification. It just doesn't happen. Abbeville, by virtue of being in the MIDDLE of its classification does not fit that mold. Greenwood is an example of a team at the BOTTOM of a classification who is has not competed for State Titles, when they weren't one of the larger schools in their classification. You all say that it is due to coaching, which may be the case, BUT you can't ignore the facts that Greenwood's State Championships all came at the 4A-D2 level where they were one of the 2-3 biggest schools, every year, playing in the D-2 playoffs. Once they moved up to 5A, they have not competed anywhere near the State Championship level (I am sure coaching plays a role into that), but the FACTS show that they aren't competing when they are one of the smallest 5A schools.

[eagle93]

On this Friday, we will see what Abbeville does against Barnwell. Barnwell is the biggest 2A school. They are underfeated in 2A. Abbeville is alittle bit under the halfway mark in the 2A classification. I bet Abbeville kills Barnwell Friday.

In the last 10 years, Abbeville beat the following teams Lincoln County, Newberry, Woodruff, Hartsville, Chesnee, Strom Thurmond, Greenville, Emerald, Fairfield Central, Clinton, Chester, Crescent and Hart County, GA. All these schools listed has a larger enrollment than Abbeville.

Again, you are still missing the point. While Barnell is bigger than Abbeville (in terms of enrollment), Abbeville certainly is not near the smallest 2A school. You are correct, they are smack in the middle of the classification. Everyone keeps using the fact that Abbeville, Dillon, (insert team name here), has beaten bigger teams. That is extremely true. It can happen. However, to do it game in and game out and in the playoffs is a different story. While Abbeville would surely win their fair share of games at 3A, they would not consistently compete for the State Championship (the way they do now in 2A). The same can be said for Dillon in 4A and South Pointe in 5A. Those teams would have their "years", but they wouldn't be the world beater they are now in their current classification.
So, if what you are saying is true about school size truly not mattering. Are you saying that Lamar (who has DOMINATED 1A for the the last decade) could win the same way at the 5A level? Anything short of a YES to my answer is admitting that school size DOES matter.

While that is an extreme example, if you truly believe that school size doesn't matter at all and that it is all about coaching and the athletes, (and to use an example from someone who said all you need is 23 players and a great head coach)...then that team should win at any level.

I will say this AGAIN. The teams at the BOTTOM of each classification do not consistently compete for State Championships in that classification. It just doesn't happen. Abbeville, by virtue of being in the MIDDLE of its classification does not fit that mold. Greenwood is an example of a team at the BOTTOM of a classification who is has not competed for State Titles, when they weren't one of the larger schools in their classification. You all say that it is due to coaching, which may be the case, BUT you can't ignore the facts that Greenwood's State Championships all came at the 4A-D2 level where they were one of the 2-3 biggest schools, every year, playing in the D-2 playoffs. Once they moved up to 5A, they have not competed anywhere near the State Championship level (I am sure coaching plays a role into that), but the FACTS show that they aren't competing when they are one of the smallest 5A schools.

It'll show when the regime changes.

[StateChampsGHS]

Nevermind, Abbeville will be without 3 to 4 of their starters tomorrow so they might lose.

[StateChampsGHS]

On this Friday, we will see what Abbeville does against Barnwell. Barnwell is the biggest 2A school. They are underfeated in 2A. Abbeville is alittle bit under the halfway mark in the 2A classification. I bet Abbeville kills Barnwell Friday.

In the last 10 years, Abbeville beat the following teams Lincoln County, Newberry, Woodruff, Hartsville, Chesnee, Strom Thurmond, Greenville, Emerald, Fairfield Central, Clinton, Chester, Crescent and Hart County, GA. All these schools listed has a larger enrollment than Abbeville.

Again, you are still missing the point. While Barnell is bigger than Abbeville (in terms of enrollment), Abbeville certainly is not near the smallest 2A school. You are correct, they are smack in the middle of the classification. Everyone keeps using the fact that Abbeville, Dillon, (insert team name here), has beaten bigger teams. That is extremely true. It can happen. However, to do it game in and game out and in the playoffs is a different story. While Abbeville would surely win their fair share of games at 3A, they would not consistently compete for the State Championship (the way they do now in 2A). The same can be said for Dillon in 4A and South Pointe in 5A. Those teams would have their "years", but they wouldn't be the world beater they are now in their current classification.
So, if what you are saying is true about school size truly not mattering. Are you saying that Lamar (who has DOMINATED 1A for the the last decade) could win the same way at the 5A level? Anything short of a YES to my answer is admitting that school size DOES matter.

While that is an extreme example, if you truly believe that school size doesn't matter at all and that it is all about coaching and the athletes, (and to use an example from someone who said all you need is 23 players and a great head coach)...then that team should win at any level.

I will say this AGAIN. The teams at the BOTTOM of each classification do not consistently compete for State Championships in that classification. It just doesn't happen. Abbeville, by virtue of being in the MIDDLE of its classification does not fit that mold. Greenwood is an example of a team at the BOTTOM of a classification who is has not competed for State Titles, when they weren't one of the larger schools in their classification. You all say that it is due to coaching, which may be the case, BUT you can't ignore the facts that Greenwood's State Championships all came at the 4A-D2 level where they were one of the 2-3 biggest schools, every year, playing in the D-2 playoffs. Once they moved up to 5A, they have not competed anywhere near the State Championship level (I am sure coaching plays a role into that), but the FACTS show that they aren't competing when they are one of the smallest 5A schools.

Dillon could compete on the 5A level and so could Abbeville. It will never happen but they both could. Winning state titles on a consist basis.....No, both teams could not do that but they would challenge anyone on that level win or lose.

Heck, most teams in 5A can't win a state title on the 5A level.

I remember when Byrnes was in 4A Divison 2 and killed most of the teams in 4A Division 1 when Bobby Bentley was coaching.