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SOME AAAA PLAYOFF QUESTIONS ANSWERED
Posted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 12:46 pm
by Rebel-Fan-74
While I admit that I am not an expert, I have done this for several years and I have at least a fairly good understanding of how it works.
Playoff seeding is often a subject that cornfuses folks more than anything in the AAAA Playoffs. How did a 6-5 team get seeded higher than a 9-2 team?
This week presents us with a perfect example of how this can happen. Let's say Dorman wins this game against Gaffney and manages to win out until the Byrnes match up where my Rebels prevail. Dorman ends up 9-2 with a 6-1 record in Region II. Meanwhile, down in Region IV, Blythewood, Spring Valley and Ridge View and Irmo beat each other up and a 6-5 Blythewood wins Region IV. Because Blythewood is a Region Champ (at 6-5) and Dorman is a Region Runner Up (at 9-2), Blytewood will be seeded higher than Dorman.
There are three different seedings:
1- Region Champs are seeded first, based on the AAAA Points they earned during the season.
2- After the Region Champs are seeded, the process is repeated seeding the Region Runner Ups.
3- Then ALL THE REMAINING QUALIFED TEAMS (3rd Place, 4th Place and At Large teams) are seeded.
*****Fact Time has ended and we are now getting into my personal opinion*****
For years, I've said the SCHLS should give the Region Champs a 2 point bonus and the runner-up a 1 point bonus and seed everyone together. You still get rewarded for winning the Region, but a 9-2 teams would still have a chance to be seeded higher than a 6-5 team.
By the way, who you got Friday night?
Re: SOME AAAA PLAYOFF QUESTIONS ANSWERED
Posted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 8:33 pm
by SF Band dad
Rebel-Fan-74 wrote:
For years, I've said the SCHLS should give the Region Champs a 2 point bonus and the runner-up a 1 point bonus and seed everyone together. You still get rewarded for winning the Region, but a 9-2 teams would still have a chance to be seeded higher than a 6-5 team.
Uh, no. I think that gives a disproportionate advantage to schools that happen to be in a region full of Big-16 schools.
A 3rd or 4th place team from Region 2 could end up seeded higher than a Champion from the other regions.
Re: SOME AAAA PLAYOFF QUESTIONS ANSWERED
Posted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 9:07 pm
by Rebel-Fan-74
SF Band dad wrote:Rebel-Fan-74 wrote:
For years, I've said the SCHLS should give the Region Champs a 2 point bonus and the runner-up a 1 point bonus and seed everyone together. You still get rewarded for winning the Region, but a 9-2 teams would still have a chance to be seeded higher than a 6-5 team.
Uh, no. I think that gives a disproportionate advantage to schools that happen to be in a region full of Big-16 schools.
A 3rd or 4th place team from Region 2 could end up seeded higher than a Champion from the other regions.
The 3rd or 4th place team would likely have more losses than 9-2... to be 3rd or 4th...
Also, my proposal does away with the "BIG 16" half point bonus. The half point would be given for a win over a AAAA school with a winning record regardless of how many students they have. It's stupid to believe a win over Goose Creek would be less points than a win over a 6-5 West Ashley.
Re: SOME AAAA PLAYOFF QUESTIONS ANSWERED
Posted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 9:19 pm
by SF Band dad
Okay, that's something I could get behind.
Re: SOME AAAA PLAYOFF QUESTIONS ANSWERED
Posted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 7:33 am
by Rebel-Fan-74
Those two changes to the points system would make a much better bracket based on the team's overall performance. While winning the Region should be worth something, reality should count also. A team that won zero games in the non-Region portion of the schedule but wins the Region seeded ahead of a 10-1 team? I just don't like it. Let me give you a crazy but possible example:
Let's say just say that South Florence was not having the season like they are having and they are more like the rest of Region VI this year. And for the sake of this example, Conway lost that game to the school from NC and goes 0-7 in the Non-Region schedule but wins all four of the Region games. A 4-7 Conway is Region Champs and would be seeded behind a 10-1 Stratford who only lost to what most of us assume is a TOP FIVE TEAM in Goose Creek. Yeah, that is realistic "SEEDING"...
And as for the BONUS POINTS, what game should get you a bonus point or half point:
Beating a 10-1 Goose Creek
Beating a 6-5 West Ashley
These changes could be implemented easily and make the brackets better from top to bottom. Some folks want less teams in the playoffs, but I don't go quite that far. Does the 4th place finisher in Region 1 deserve an automatic berth? Well, to that I say probably no more than the third place finisher in Region 6 this year, but what about next year? Region Six from all the evidence we have so far is having a down year on the whole... now the Bruins look good, but 1-4, 1-4, 1-3 and 2-2 for the others is no what I expected. But if you let #3 of 5 get an automatic berth then #4 of 8 gets one as well. Should they only give automatic to the Region Champ? or maybe Region Champ and Runner Up? 16 automatic and 16 "at large"? I think the current way, with top half of the Region automatic and the rest at large seems to cover all the deserving schools (and yes some that really shouldn't be there make it). I do not favor cutting back on the automatic berths. And before anyone says anything, "Yes is easier to be in the top three in Region 4 than it is to be in the top 3 in Region 3 this season (MAGIC WORDS: this season). What about next season when things change?
Re: SOME AAAA PLAYOFF QUESTIONS ANSWERED
Posted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 8:24 am
by bruindad79
Rebel-Fan-74 wrote:Those two changes to the points system would make a much better bracket based on the team's overall performance. While winning the Region should be worth something, reality should count also. A team that won zero games in the non-Region portion of the schedule but wins the Region seeded ahead of a 10-1 team? I just don't like it. Let me give you a crazy but possible example:
Let's say just say that South Florence was not having the season like they are having and they are more like the rest of Region VI this year. And for the sake of this example, Conway lost that game to the school from NC and goes 0-7 in the Non-Region schedule but wins all four of the Region games. A 4-7 Conway is Region Champs and would be seeded behind a 10-1 Stratford who only lost to what most of us assume is a TOP FIVE TEAM in Goose Creek. Yeah, that is realistic "SEEDING"...
And as for the BONUS POINTS, what game should get you a bonus point or half point:
Beating a 10-1 Goose Creek
Beating a 6-5 West Ashley
These changes could be implemented easily and make the brackets better from top to bottom. Some folks want less teams in the playoffs, but I don't go quite that far. Does the 4th place finisher in Region 1 deserve an automatic berth? Well, to that I say probably no more than the third place finisher in Region 6 this year, but what about next year? Region Six from all the evidence we have so far is having a down year on the whole... now the Bruins look good, but 1-4, 1-4, 1-3 and 2-2 for the others is no what I expected. But if you let #3 of 5 get an automatic berth then #4 of 8 gets one as well. Should they only give automatic to the Region Champ? or maybe Region Champ and Runner Up? 16 automatic and 16 "at large"? I think the current way, with top half of the Region automatic and the rest at large seems to cover all the deserving schools (and yes some that really shouldn't be there make it). I do not favor cutting back on the automatic berths. And before anyone says anything, "Yes is easier to be in the top three in Region 4 than it is to be in the top 3 in Region 3 this season (MAGIC WORDS: this season). What about next season when things change?
I agree with 74, the whole system needs to be revamped...
Re: SOME AAAA PLAYOFF QUESTIONS ANSWERED
Posted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 9:38 am
by EHSMeanGreen
bruindad79 wrote:Rebel-Fan-74 wrote:I agree with 74, the whole system needs to be revamped...
Some changes OK but not totally revamped.
Our current system is much better than the "point chasing only" system that we previously had.
Locking in the "Big 16" was just awful.
I like seeding the top 2 in each Region before the others.
Having uneven sized Regions in the biggest problem. Financially, I understand why we have them but
playing in an 8 team Region is completely different than playing in a 5 team Region.
Re: SOME AAAA PLAYOFF QUESTIONS ANSWERED
Posted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 12:26 pm
by Rebel-Fan-74
EHSMeanGreen wrote:Locking in the "Big 16" was just awful.
No question about it, the BIG 16 should be a thing of the past, there should be AAAA. I'm ok with two brackets, but the bonus points should be based on winning records only with no mention of BIG 16 at all...
AAAA winning record: Win=5.0 points Loss= 4.0 points
AAAA Non-Winning record: Win = 4.5 points Loss 3.5 points
AAA Winning Record: Win 4.0 points Loss 3.0 points
AAA Non Winning Record: Win 3.5 Loss 2.5
EHSMeanGreen wrote:I like seeding the top 2 in each Region before the others.
So you are ok with a 4-7 Region Champ being seeded over a 10-1 Runner Up? I mean, it's ok if you do, I just want to see the best teams rewarded for their season.
No disrepect intended here, just being totally honest, if Stratford upsets Goose Creek in week 11 and wins Region Seven and West Florence ends up 5-6 and Region Six Champion, who do you think deserves the higher seed:
10-1 Goose Creek with the schedule they played
6-5 West Florence with the schedule they played
Re: SOME AAAA PLAYOFF QUESTIONS ANSWERED
Posted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 1:29 pm
by EHSMeanGreen
Rebel-Fan-74 wrote:AAAA winning record: Win=5.0 points Loss= 4.0 points
AAAA Non-Winning record: Win = 4.5 points Loss 3.5 points
AAA Winning Record: Win 4.0 points Loss 3.0 points
AAA Non Winning Record: Win 3.5 Loss 2.5
Don't like it. Too much Penalty for teams that have natural Rivalries with 3A schools.
Also increases the penalty on schools like Bluffton that are geographically challenged.
Current point system is better, it still penalizes for playing smaller schools but it is more reasonable.
You get the same points for beating a winning 3A and losing 4A school.
Rebel-Fan-74 wrote:Beating a 10-1 Goose Creek
Beating a 6-5 West Ashley
We all recognize issues like this but there has to be a cut-off point.
Finding the most fair is hard.
Under this point system. We still have the same problem, but it is even more severe.
You would get less points for beating 3A Daniel 9-1, than you would for beating 4A Riverside 1-10.
Under the current system you get the same points.
Rebel-Fan-74 wrote:So you are ok with a 4-7 Region Champ being seeded over a 10-1 Runner Up?
That entire problem is created because of 5 team Regions. Don't have 5 team Regions.
In a 11-game season, 8 team Regions have 7 games that really matter.
5 team Regions only have 4 games that really matter. That's the Problem.
Not a great way to fix this without costing some schools money.
Re: SOME AAAA PLAYOFF QUESTIONS ANSWERED
Posted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 5:42 pm
by Rebel-Fan-74
EHSMeanGreen wrote:Rebel-Fan-74 wrote:AAAA winning record: Win=5.0 points Loss= 4.0 points
AAAA Non-Winning record: Win = 4.5 points Loss 3.5 points
AAA Winning Record: Win 4.5 points Loss 3.5 points
AAA Non Winning Record: Win 4.0 Loss 3.0
Don't like it. Too much Penalty for teams that have natural Rivalries with 3A schools.
Also increases the penalty on schools like Bluffton that are geographically challenged.
Current point system is better, it still penalizes for playing smaller schools but it is more reasonable.
You get the same points for beating a winning 3A and losing 4A school.
OK, I agree with non-winning AAAA and Winning AAA being same points. Changes made...
Now, what do you think? That changes both "penalties" as you see them, but you can't forget the reward that a AAAA school is a AAAA school, regardless if it is #52 in size or #1 in size. There is no more BIG 16 Bonus, so that helps all those schools who "can't scheduled Big 16 Schools" and it evens out the playing field...You get rewarded for playing winning teams, not BIGGER schools.
Rebel-Fan-74 wrote:Beating a 10-1 Goose Creek
Beating a 6-5 West Ashley
We all recognize issues like this but there has to be a cut-off point.
Finding the most fair is hard.
I think this is the most fair. I can't see how beating a BIG 16 school really matters... Of the two I've listed, who would you put your money on? Did you have to think about it very long?? Not at all. So why should a win over West Ashley get you more points than a win over Goose Creek?
Under this point system. We still have the same problem, but it is even more severe.
You would get less points for beating 3A Daniel 9-1, than you would for beating 4A Riverside 1-10.
Under the current system you get the same points.
We fixed that...
Rebel-Fan-74 wrote:So you are ok with a 4-7 Region Champ being seeded over a 10-1 Runner Up?
That entire problem is created because of 5 team Regions. Don't have 5 team Regions.
In a 11-game season, 8 team Regions have 7 games that really matter.
5 team Regions only have 4 games that really matter. That's the Problem.
Not a great way to fix this without costing some schools money.
If we didn't automatically give Region Champs one of the top seeds, but they were seeded based on the entire season, that would help even things out for the 8 team regions. They would not have to be behind a Region Runner up automatically, but could pass them if they have the points....
I still feel strongly that a 2 or 3 point bonus for winning the Region should happen, you should get something for being the Region Champ afterall, but after they get those bonus points you seed them were they fall. I just think that a 10-1 Easley that only lost to Greenwood should not have to go on the road to a 4-7 team just because they won a weak Region.
Now someone will come back with "WELL EASLEY SHOULD HAVE TAKEN CARE OF BUSINESS!"
To that I say, they did, 10 times while the 4-7 team did only 4 times. So that arguement doesn't wash with me....