Cavalier Eagle...as I previously stated I hate the damn things also. Also I have asthma. I wanted to say I respect you for trying to do the mask thing. Hell, you're a better man than I am because I still haven't gone and gotten one but I'm gonna go ahead and plan on doing that. It seems SLICK had this (his face) covered way before any of us.
I recently had a very interesting discussion on Facebook. Most of you have guessed my politics and I've let it be known what I think of the man in charge. But one thing I refuse to do is check boxes if you know what I mean, which is that I'm not in any tribe but the American tribe in my mind. This much should be obvious to anyone who's visited the photo section on this site. I'm just not the type who digs in on anything really. Well I dig women exclusively and living most definitely but for the most part I try to stay open minded and open to persuasion (about masks LOL). I've always considered it a strength. Hell in football, a punt is always a good play call as I've heard. I'm not idealistic and it's no secret I'll always try to put my fellow American's needs before my own if it's not a dealbreaker for me.
The hallmark (pardon the pun) of my friendship with Chuck was first and foremost football. But when we weren't at a game or watching a game, our past time was debate. We were ALWAYS debating and disagreeing. We were so good at it we could make the other become the devil's advocate of his own position. If one of us disagreed strongly with the other and then started to come around or begin to agree, we would instantly switch sides of the debate. This wasn't a concious thing we did. I was just very perceptive of social patterns and cues especially around my buddy.
Some days I'd actually experiment by jumping in with support for what I knew his position was and I would witness him flip the tables back on me and try and pick apart whatever arguments I was making that he actually himself supported. Only once did we ever discuss the actual dynamics of not our beliefs but how we influenced each other with these endless debates. I was rarely dug in against him on any given topic...I just liked to kick the tires of his belief system and test how stubborn he was. And believe me he came off as very stubborn, confident, and sometimes downright condescending.
One day within a year of his death I came out and mentioned being frustrated at times debating him because I was always flexing and bending to accomodate his views while still challenging them and basically just using a debate style almost akin to just interviewing him. I always kept coming back at him with questions or hypothetical scenarios and "what if's". He however was very stoic and stubborn (and well informed!) I told him one day whenever we debate a hot topic I feel like I'm making good points but still feel as though I'm throwing rocks in the Grand Canyon. To my surprise he was kind of caught off guard and immediately admitted to being a mule most of the time IN THE MOMENT. But he was very quick to assure me that day that although he might seem immovable on every topic he tried to plant a flag in, he was always paying very close attention to all my logic and points that I ever tried to sway him with. He told me he was usually unmoved on any given issue we talked about at the time of debate but would marinate in my opinions and counter-arguments. He assured me that day that many times he was convinced he was right and I was confused about certain topics until days later when he'd still be mulling it all over and on many occasions I did move the needle for him.
That day he told me, "You're the guy in my life who keeps me centered and safely distanced from the fringe of right wing politics. You're always well reasoned and very convincing and you've changed my stance on many occassions.....I just don't like to ever admit it."
To his credit he also challenged some of my own naive views about the world. On the subject of Muslims for instance he definitely flipped me and prevented me from ever being some Ben Afflect nutjob. On the subject of solar energy I flipped him. He'd told me about ten years ago the world has never made a dime from solar energy. I looked into that technology and attempted to educate myself. The next time he made the claim which was nearly ten years later, he said the exact same words. I'd just watched a Nova special on solar energy and solar battery cells. I was able to convince him that solar panels are what power our satellites, that companies wouldn't keep producing them and people wouldn't keep buying them if they were a money pit for a whole decade and that solar panel technology is great, it's the problem of storing the energy that holds us back. (Did you know somewhere in the world there are giant building sized solid metal cylinders that start slowly spinning in the morning when the sun hits solar panels and then by the time the sun goes down these metal cylinders have so much speed, mass, and ultimately inertia that when the sun goes down generators kick in and the metal drums start delivering the stored up momentum as electricity again. Fascinating.)
Anyway, there are a couple of quotes I've read recently that I like. "Americans will always do the right thing. Once they exhausted every other option."
And this one...
“The offer of certainty, the offer of complete security, the offer of an impermeable faith that can’t give way, is an offer of something not worth having. I want to live my life taking the risk all the time that I don’t know anything like enough yet; that I haven’t understood enough; that I can’t know enough; that I’m always hungrily operating on the margins of a potentially great harvest of future knowledge and wisdom. I wouldn’t have it any other way.”
The second is a way of life for me. Many times in my life and even on these football boards, I played my cards close to the vest and stayed open minded as often as I could. I hate throwing good money after bad. The idea of gettinng into a penny auction disgusts me. Basically, I make it a point to never have to eat crow. And if I ante up to the table you can bet I'm holding a royal flush and about 8 aces up my sleeve. An old mentor of mine said every day, "There's nothing in the world like the feeling of knowing that you know that you know. That you can say something with the confidence it would take to swing across the pits of Hell on a rotten vine and spit in the Devil's eye."
He told me once his brother's own saying, "Get your sheet together! And after you get it together, STACK IT!"
Basically he impressed upon me not to go around living like I know everything and that if I did think I knew something that I knew it unassailably. I wasn't to come to him and tell him the boat cover we just designed and manufactured was perfect and fit like a glove so well you could bounce a quarter off of it unless I was gonna bet my life on it. Really the underlying message wasn't to be confident that I knew anything....I was to be confident that I was mindful of what I knew but also even more careful to know that I didn't know some things for certain.
It's why I rarely call anyone out on the boards or boast about the Cavs or declare open warfare on anyone. I've done it exactly twice...ninja chicken and victory 6. I was ready to swing across the pits of Hell and spit in the Devil's eye in the case of those two posters because I had bided my time, watched and observed, exhausted many approaches that would avoid an all out confrontation, and especially in the case of Vic I knew I spoke for the entire community and I was above reproach. Me and one fan got into a debate once about high seed/low seed conventions. I knew this dude was a lawyer and a damn stubborn debater. But I did the research, TRIED TO PROVE MYSELF WRONG, and then got to it once I knew that I knew that I knew.
Again, try this exercise....try to prove yourself wrong. In the scientific world you actually get points for proving yourself wrong because the goal isn't to be right, it's to know the truth of things....and the two are different. And if you can prove yourself wrong and preempt anyone else from beating you to the punch, then guess what? You avoid the punch.
Ken is correct, there are right-fighters everywhere. People who'd rather win an argument than actually come out on the factual side of it. I try to make sure I'm not gonna make an ass of myself if I can help it. If there's any doubt in my mind or I think something is just beyond my reach of totally grasping it then I let the experts handle it. How many times have you been convinced about a call on TV and then seen an instant replay. It might be a grabber move (I'm not allowed to use the P word around certain acquaitances of mine, even if quoting the POTUS, and even if they voted for the person I'm quoting.....so if you hear me say "grabber" it's code for wimp with a capital P.) Anyway it might seem like a grabber move but I try and stay light on my feet on any given subject and not easily entrenched or cornered. As such unless I'm mistaken I can pretty much say my stance on covid (why is everyone capitalizing it???? Yes, I know it's an acronym or something like that but really, does the virus care whether save a half measure by not going all caps? Again SLICK had that covered before the alphabet was even invented.) Anyway I've navigated the whole issure with a mind open enough to allow me to take a step to the left or the right without feeling like I'm eating crow.
By the way, a funny story....years ago a hail storm devastated Chuck's entire Hosta inventory. All his family and friends showed up within 24 hours to help save as much of it as we could. As we were informed, the damaged leaves would eventually die and kill the whole plant off (or something like that). So the plan was everybody (there were probably 15 of us down at his growing lot) were armed with scissors and we were
to cut off any damaged leaves where hails stones had punctured the leaf for every single plant. Hundreds of plants.
Interestingly enough and I didn't even see myself coming to this confluence when I began the story, Chuck had to explain to us the danger of spreading infections from one plant to another. So we were required to dip the scissors in a cup of bleach to disinfect the blades so as not to risk the saftey of a healthy plant by contaminating it with the same scissors used to doctor other plants that might have some Hosta virus or other mitigating factor beyond the hail damage. He was serious as a heart attack about this...he'd learned the hard way whole crops could be wiped out by inadvertently spreading some bad stuff from one "bad apple" to the rest of the crop. Not unlike what's going on now.
The entertaining part of the story is we were carrying our bleach in paper Coca-Cola cups! Periodically one of us would have to go get a refill. Chuck called out for a refill of bleach that day and I brought him a full cup of bleach and joked, "Enjoy your Coke sir!" (He didn't even drink Coke....he'd only ever drank Diet Coke) How was I to know he was apparently as absent minded as he was thirsty???
He heard me say that and grabbed the cup and put it to his lips and turned it up! Immediately he spit it out and started heaving and rolling around on the ground shouting "That was bleach I just drank!" It seriously leg swept him...we came running with water and towels. It really messed him up for at least 5 minutes...his mouth burned, he felt like he was gonna puke, he was immediately weak. He had to go sit down and drink and rinse and spit and drink some more for another 15 minutes before he could resume. None of us were laughing. I was horrified, almost pissed at him for actually drinking it while at the same time pissed at myself for joking that it was something to drink. He was pissed at me too but at the same time I could tell he was reasoning it out and knew it was just a bad mistimed joke. Still, it was a few hours before any of us felt comfortable laughing about it.
On the phone two days ago with our other friend who'd been there I reminded him of that day I gave Chuck a cup of bleach and he drank it. Matt texted right back without missing a beat, "Dude....you were decades ahead of The President's cure for COVID!"
We had a good laugh about that.
Anyway, like I said. As Ken has observed, some people think this is a political football (pun intended) and are apparently not going to send in the punting unit until they're backed up in their own endzone. Mostly cause they're SO invested at this point that all they know to do is double down on what they believe. I keep wondering what these anti-mask people would do if they had to have surgery and saw the doctor take off his mask and gloves and throw them in the wastebasket claiming he's no grabber and neither should you be. It would be extremely consistent for some people in this country to argue it's their constitutional right not to be rubbed with alcohol before being given a shot (with a sterile needle I might add) or to allow a doctor to operate on them or anyone they love while wearing gloves or a mask.
A very good friend of mine lives in New York. I was puzzled to see her make a hostile post on facebook denouncing masks and then espousing on their ineffectiveness and complaining it's the government tryig to force her to do something she didn't believe in. She hates Trump and Republicans so I just assumed she would be pro mask.
Again I was puzzled...but just for a goof I shared it to my facebook page. Didn't emoji it...didn't like it, hate it, click haha, or love it. Left my reaction blank. And I didn't comment on it either. Just shared it like a culture in a petri dish. Immediately I was attacked by liberals for being an idiot and posting garbage that wasn't true with no facts to back up her thoughts. Now I don't believe in fighting but when someone comes up and takes a swing at me guess what? I'm in a fight. So my first move was to troll him a bit. Short sharp jabs to see how radical and easily provoked this guy was. He kept demanding sources and facts and accusing me of dodging him with passive aggressive responses and "acting like a nice guy" (first time I've ever been accused angrily of acting like a nice guy....oh wait mikey made the same accusation my first season on PFT. I kid I kid.) I said, "Who says I'm acting?" Then I asked him if he knew the difference between being passive aggressive, which I wasn't, and condescending, which I was.
He kept demanding I provide proof. I said anything that can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof. I challenged him to come at me with the facts instead of just insults. He balked and said I posted it, it was my responsibility to prove my post. I trolled him a bit longer making him grow confident he had me cornered. (Unfortunately he then announced he had to go to bed.) Then I took him up on his challenge. Went out and guess what? I learned things about masks I didn't ever know. Found several articles, one from Scientific American backing up my friends claim that it can lead to lower levels of oxygen intake and that masks aren't designed to be worn all day by everybody while they do everything. I dumped about 1,000 words of credible science on his head that seemed to confirm my friends views. For the record I'm down with wearing them, I think Biden looks stupid in his mask and I think Trump would look even stupider with a mask. But one of them is being a grabber about how other people would perceive them while the other was willing to face ridicule for doing something that wasn't going to harm himself or anyone else and on an off chance, .001%?? Who knows? Like 74 said, who knows??? On an off chance it prevents an infection?
All I know is it was a safe bet. Nothing lose, potentially everything to gain by donning a mask. (Yes it's also political. No, I don't know if Biden would've worn one if Trump had beaten him to it with as I suggested before a red MAGA mask. Seriously he could raise a lot of money for his re-election campaign if he'd jumped on the mask-wagon months ago before Biden emerged from his basement. I mean seriously some people almost have anntenae on their heads to download Trumps views. Guarantee if Trump had started pumping out MAGA masks after the first case was reported, his followers would tell you you could take their masks from their cold dead hands. (Except I spot the irony that the dead guy might just as likely be the one who didn't believe in masks.)
Anyway, my post shut this grabber up completely. Unfortunately, an old coworker jumped into the thread with an actual vocabulary AND information AND a respectful tone. Me and him went back and forth a couple of times and managed to hammer out some sort of comprimise on the issue. Old Warpaint even jumped in the thread asking me if I was gonna be a grabber or just do the brave thing and wear a mask.
All along I stood by my claim that I just shared the post so I could get a consensus and some opinions and see where my FB friends stood. I was happy to abdicate the argument mostly to my friend who came to the debate well armed and I was proud to acknowledge his well composed arguments and that it had definitely helped sway me. There was a more subtle psychological angle of mine to the whole thread and debate and purpose of sharing the post but that discussion doesn't belong here.
Again, I've felt all along like masks were not a BAD idea. I didn't know if they were worth 3 sheets but I KNEW for me and most citizens though that there just didn't seem to be a downside to the mask other than personal comfort, possibly looking silly and for a few, impeded ability to breath. Where I work some of the people wear masks, some don't. I respect the ones that do and wonder if the ones that don't (myself included) were doing the most intelligent thing.
It's like I told MXDAD, how is it that much different than a seatbelt or motorcycle helmet? I always buckle up. I've noticed there isn't anyone who doesn't believe in seatbelts. (Would be fascinating to go back and research attitudes towards seatbelts when they came out and were eventually mandated.) I've almost NEVER needed a seatbelt....almost.
Anyway I'll wrap this up. I'm relieved to report that my friends sister-in-law is getting good medical care, is feeling better and up and about doing chores and working outside. I asked her husband if the virus had run it's course. He said, "I hope so." So Keep Calm and Carry One. (Mask that is. Why just not have one? In your pocket or glove compartment? If you're not going to wear one, then at least have one handy? And btw, you all know The President wears one when he's not on camera and around strangers right? Do we all agree on this? Kind of like we all agree he doesn't read daily National Security Briefings and his first Secretary Of State called him a moron right? We agree on that much?)
Cavalier Eagle, good posting. I cringed slightly when you announced they were off the table for yourself. Was heartened that you wanted to hear what Scotty had to say about alternatives. Interestingly enough in my research about the efficacy of standard masks, I found and quoted an article about Stanford University researching new mask designs with portable pocket sized devices that deliver O2 inside the mask to assist breathing.
https://news.stanford.edu/2020/04/14/st ... ace-masks/
Hope this helps.
And yes they do have Van Halen masks. Mikey you can probably find a Judas Priest mask too I bet. Oh look, I found one for you!
https://www.etsy.com/listing/829396145/ ... allery-1-1
Now that is one bad azz mask!
“Win as if you were used to it, lose as if you enjoyed it for a change.” ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson
